From Poker to Property: A Tale of Consistency & Opportunity, with Mor Zucker

Mor Zucker  0:01  

Some of my clients see things I'm in a very narrow point of view of how they're used to seeing it, especially in the flipping business where they have their formulas. And if it fits, it doesn't. And if it does, it does. And as a woman, I believe we have the ability to bring in some more elements to the decision making that potentially strictly investor that sees things that cannot see mainly opportunities. And I have found that that has been very helpful. Also, the competition is easier for me to get into a door to more clients when I'm a female because it's very male dominated. So I feel as though being a female industry has helped me.

Derek Marlin  0:45  

Welcome to raising the flipping bar. My name is Derrick Marlon, and I've redeveloped over 80 properties in metro Denver. I bought and sold 115 multifamily doors in Cincinnati, Ohio, and my team has done just under 300 single family rental acquisitions for our clients. On this show. My goal is to help you make more money, save you a bunch of time and create a well oiled flipping machine. Let's dive in. And if you want more information, had to fix and flip got show. Okay, Morris Zucker. Welcome to raising the flipping bar. I'm so excited to have you.

Mor Zucker  1:18  

I'm super excited to be here. Thank you.

Derek Marlin  1:20  

Awesome. Well, we are definitely going to jump into a lot of real estate Morris here with us from Team Denver homes. But what I would love to hear first is you have a very interesting background. Before real estate, please share with our listeners what you were doing before you got into real estate.

Mor Zucker  1:33  

So I was a professional poker player for six years prior to becoming a realtor.

Derek Marlin  1:38  

Nice. And I read in some of your notes that you've played in the World Series of Poker. Yes, I

Mor Zucker  1:43  

play every year. Oh, you still play I still play I actually still play as a hobby on a weekly basis with friends as a home game, too.

Derek Marlin  1:49  

Okay, so give me maybe one of the craziest stories about playing in the World Series of Poker because I'm sure people would just be dying to know just some of the inner workings of what it's actually like to play that tournament.

Mor Zucker  1:59  

I think people just are so pressured to succeed for that tournament, that they don't really play their normal game. A lot of the times the pressure to have one try and do it well. And I've seen people lose their mind and my game. Some people will get up and throw their cards and walk out and they don't even realize that they still have chips to play. And they throw out their tournament completely.

Derek Marlin  2:23  

No way. Yeah. Oh my god. That's crazy. Yeah. Okay, so now I have to ask, so how, what's the furthest that you've ever gotten in World Series of Poker.

Mor Zucker  2:31  

Actually, in the World Series of Poker, the furthest I got was, I think, somewhere in the 28th place, but not in the main event. I did really well on the WP T Oh, nice. And I actually do really well in the smaller tournaments. Because simply because when there's a very large field of players, you're going to find that luck plays a bigger portion of the game, because you have to overcome many more scenarios of your hands holding. And with the smaller tournaments, you I'd rather win several smaller tournaments, then try and shoot for a big one, simply because you have to play consistently, the big tournaments a lot in order to, to get further and I don't have that much time anymore. When I did it for a living, I could play every tournament. And you know, the chances of you losing a few are fine. When you only are playing a couple a month, you really have to do well in those. So it's really for fun. Now, the stress was much greater when it was actually for money. And there I focused on making money. It's funny how once I stopped playing for money, I actually started making more of it. Really?

Derek Marlin  3:44  

Yes, I think it's interesting. So there's got to be some things that translate from being a professional poker player into being a good negotiator in real estate. So maybe tell us a little bit about a skill that you feel like has prepped you or translated overwhelmed to you being good at real estate.

Mor Zucker  3:57  

100% is body language. I like that 100% I feel as though people tell you a lot. Why don't feel I know people tell you a lot about what they're thinking without telling you what they're thinking. And it's very easy to just listen to someone and not look at someone. But most often than not people tell us how they feel with their body. And with clients. It's not kind of holding information from me. It's more like understanding where do they lean towards? And I find that mostly during listing presentations, right? So when I speak about what I do well or things that I don't do, or my commission, oftentimes the client is going to give me cues on how well he's receiving my information well before he tells me so if I feel as though the cues I'm receiving are not necessarily the ones that I'm looking for. I can quickly change my strategy during the presentation. And then I can see how that goes before he makes his final decision. And I believe that oftentimes I closed a deal that was not supposed to be mine, because I read those cues in time and change my strategy midway.

Derek Marlin  5:08  

Interesting. Well, and I would love for you to give our audience a little bit of a background of where you're from, I think that's really interesting, too, and maybe culturally, how some of those differences and where you're from, and what we do here in the States, and I've been here for a long time, but tell our audience a little bit about your true backstory, and maybe how those things relate to real estate,

Mor Zucker  5:25  

of course, and if you can't register my accent, I'm from Israel, right. And Israel's culture is a very transparent, outspoken culture. So in Israel, everyone's going to tell you what they think, whether you like it or not, and most often without tact. Yeah. So the biggest transition for me was to learn to be more politically correct. When I moved to the States, and figuring out a way to say what I'd like to say without, you know, hurting anyone's feelings, either. Because I'm so transparent, that sometimes that can come off, not the right way. But to my surprise, I found that most people actually accept and respect that level of honesty. I tell them straight off the bat, what I think if I can sell their house, if I can't, I tell them, what's the price, I think I can get them. I don't bullshit. And people found I liked, they liked that they know what they're gonna get with me. They hear it straight up from the beginning through the end. And I found that is has opened my clients to communicate with me the way I communicate, rather than me communicating with them the way they communicate.

Derek Marlin  6:35  

I think that's super interesting. And I kind of got some of that, too. So I'm originally from the east coast, from New York In New Jersey. And I think that's where maybe even New Yorkers, quote, unquote, get a bad rap. But it's like, no, those people are passionate, those people are very forthcoming, like you just said, and they're just going to tell you the way that it is whether you like it or not. So great point, though, that it's like we can soften the edges a little bit. And being out west, I think people a little more laid back a little more relaxed. But I think that that's a great quality. And I think it helps you stand out. So I'm glad people know that about you. Thank you. Yeah, absolutely. So let's jump into the real estate side a little bit. Tell us a little bit about team Denver homes, how you guys are structured, and a little bit about your company.

Mor Zucker  7:11  

So team number homes, I have a partner with Michelle chard Dulo, we have a team of females only. And that's not because we're sexist by any means. We just found that when we have shared interests, we can operate as a team more smoothly. And that's really helped us as well. But everyone on my team focuses on a different niche in real estate. Michelle focuses on luxury, everyone has their own thing. And I focus on investment, property and development.

Derek Marlin  7:40  

Perfect. And I'm actually a huge champion of that, too. I've got my wife and who's a business partner, I've got two out of our three kiddos are girls as well. And I think women in real estate is a really important factor, I think, especially if we look at investment, real estate, it's very male dominated and very male driven. Maybe tell us a little bit about how your team or definitely you being on the investment side that to me, there's big advantages of being a woman and a female in kind of a male dominated space. Tell me a little bit about maybe your thoughts on that?

Mor Zucker  8:07  

Absolutely. I find that though my clients only see some of my clients see things, I'm in a very narrow point of view of how they're used to seeing it, especially in the flipping business where they have their formulas, and if it fits, it doesn't, and if it does, it does. And as a woman, I believe we have the ability to bring in some more elements to the decision making that potentially strictly investor that sees things that cannot see mainly opportunities. And I have found that that has been very helpful. Also, the competition is easier for me to get into a door to more clients when I'm a female because it's very male dominated. So I feel as though being a female industry has helped me

Derek Marlin  8:53  

awesome. No, I love to hear that. I think it's super important. Give me a little bit more of an kind of let's do a deeper dive into what you focus on on the investment space. Obviously, our community that listens to this show is definitely leans more on the investment side, could be flips could be rentals could be short term. Tell us a little bit more about your experience and what you do for your clients more of the investment real estate side,

Mor Zucker  9:13  

I focus on what the client is focused on. So the client's portfolio right? So I figured out straight off the bat, what is my client want to achieve? My first question is are you looking for lump sums of money that you're going to make after a specific amount of time? Or are you looking for long term investments that will yield you on a monthly basis and income and I'm once I find out what they're looking for and also what they have. So I'm going to make a decision on how to direct them based on the portfolio they currently own. I'm able to figure out what's the best strategy for them. Typically, I'm the type of investor realtor that's going to push my clients to diversify their portfolios. Most of the time they come with a similar product they have under you know their portfolio in different variations of the same product. And I like to always say hey, you know, I see that you have, you know 10, Income Property apartments, condos, it's time potentially, to get something that's going to be a different style for you just to, you know, put some different eggs in different baskets. But I specialize in all of them. I think I know the most at this point about flipping only because I've had the most experience in that in my first few years in real estate. And that's where most of my clients originated from. But at this point, I have definitely expanded my business to include a lot of multi door, that's my my newest kind of venture into a real estate is where I have been selling a lot of multifamily over five units.

Derek Marlin  10:41  

And actually give us a little bit of context. From a year perspective, roughly, when you started, you said your first three years in real estate, were leaning a little more towards the flip side of things, What years were those?

Mor Zucker  10:49  

So I started in 2014. Okay, so from 2014, to let's say, 2017 28 to 2017 is where I focus, mainly on flipping, I had most of my clients were flippers, that's how you and I met as well. And, and from there, you know, clients just ended up switching their products or ending up keeping the property and then they'd like to know the rental analysis on it. And from there just things started to progress towards different types of investment properties.

Derek Marlin  11:16  

Yeah. And actually, I'm glad you said that, that is how we met, I want to say was 2015. And for kind of our audiences as backstory and back context, actually, your client bought our very first partnership flip. And so what we had done is we had found a client where the family had four siblings, the dad had lived in this four Plex, actually really close to our we're in the Broadway collective doing our recording in our podcast studio in Englewood, Colorado. And we had done a four Plex, and the client had lived in the property for I want to say 30 or 40 years, dad was in pretty bad health, I needed to move into assisted living, he had two vacant units, the one unit that he did have rented, and this is insane. This is 2015. And he was only charging her $400 a month in rent. So obviously very, very behind the times on current rent. So what we did is we partnered with the family, were able to get four siblings kind of on the same page and realizing that we can help create a lot of equity for them, we fix the property up. And then our partnership flip model is where we split the profits 5050 on the back end. Well, the cool backstory of how you and I got introduced is that your client ended up actually buying the four Plex fixed up, leased up and we because of our working relationship, we were great. We're like if we're going to sell to anybody, and it's a fair price, the market was strong, but not insane. At that point, we're like, well, let's work with more. So I'd be really curious to learn if you can remember a little bit about the backstory of your client who bought that four Plex for you guys bought it off market. And to me, this is all about why relationships are important. And if all things are equal, I'd rather do business with people that we know like and trust. But give me maybe the backstory from your end of what your client saw or what you guys saw on this deal coming in on it.

Mor Zucker  12:51  

I'm never going to forget this deal. This is the first deal I had that we had an IRA fund attached to it. And I've learned so much from that deal, because we're the first investment deal that a client purchased with an IRA and they had to have those leases in place in order to get that approved, which is why you had that leased out for us prior to the purchase. Yes, this client like all the other clients wanted an off market exclusive. And that's where I know most of your listeners are looking for as well. And the off market exclusives are best found through relationships, and not the cold calls, not the mailers it's asking, Hey, can you find anything that from your people that they can come up and you let me know about that a month prior to that deal actually transpiring. And I let him know this is coming in a month's time, I find that that is very beneficial to give people a few weeks heads up before they're able to purchase it. Because that creates even more and exclusive and more importantly than the whole, you know, exclusive facade, it's the fact that my client was able to run the numbers very well prior to the purchase. So by the time you were ready to show us the property, he already had his numbers in place, you already knew how much rent he needed to collect, you already had all of the things that he needed to get this through, which is why on my end, I was ready to go straight away.

Derek Marlin  14:17  

No, and that's good. That's a testament to what you do. And what your team does is that that is one of the very few in the last seven or eight years when we've been doing the full time fix and flip side of things that a deal actually went through. We do get a lot of people who come to us and say, oh my gosh, I would love to give you an off market offer. Give me an incentive to work with you before we list and so we talk to everybody and we give them that opportunity. But nine times out of 10 Either they don't have their numbers run. They don't have their financials dialed or there's a huge uptick in the market. And it's like, you know, it's a tough two way road to go down. Because part of me says I don't want to get greedy and if I've got a great relationship with a good opportunity, let's move forward. But if that person doesn't have their ducks in a row, or their clients finances aren't in a row then there's really not motivation for us to do an offer. Good deal, we might as well just list it. So that's just a testament to you guys, and what you've done for your clients. And it was definitely a good, good experience, even God, whatever, seven years ago now, are most of your listeners realtors or actual flippers themselves, you know, there's a good cross section of people that are exclusively real estate agents and real estate brokers, there's people that are exclusively real estate investors. And then there are people that are hybrids like yourself that do both investing and in agency side business on their own, too. So we've got a pretty big cross section, you know, of all the above and anything, there's a lot of people that are also in the, the up and coming in the newer market, that people just wanting to learn about real estate investing, especially being hyperlocal. And being in the Denver Metro area.

Mor Zucker  15:38  

Well, I have advice for the realtors, who tell me, so the realtors, they really want their clients to purchase right away. So they want to also help their clients as soon as their clients, you know, voice that they want something immediately they send over the listing, whatever that may be to their client to show them here, I have an office exclusive for you, I have an off market for you, without checking if this is exactly what the client wants. Or more importantly, if the client is able to close. And I've found that some previous agents that were on my team, they were young, hungry, they really wanted to get those deals under contract. But they didn't do the necessary homework to see if that client and this property actually is going to be a good fit. And what happens is when you start bringing clients that don't write offers to these off market providers, they're going to stop providing you off market properties if you're not going to end up closing on them or giving them offers. So I recommend to realtors to do your homework, and not just blankly and blindly send properties to any person on your list just because somebody sent it to you find if this is going to be something that's going to work because your reputation is in every one of those transactions as well.

Derek Marlin  16:50  

No, I love that. And everybody who's listening, you have to listen to more of what you just said, I think that's super, super important. We had an agent on our team. And we wanted to deal in good faith when we were working with other hedge funds. And we were representing the buyer and buying a bunch of different single family income generating properties. And he used to say that you could smell the commission breath on another person on the over the phone because you're right, they just wanted to get that deal done. And they were so kind of narrowly focused on their goals versus if you put your client in the driver's seat. And you know, one of my favorite sayings is slowest smooth and smooth is fast. And it's a military saying and if you realize that this is just a little bit longer of a drawn out process, if you put your client in the driver's seat, you're gonna win as an agent, your clients gonna win and you're gonna do way more business. So I love that advice.

Mor Zucker  17:32  

And you'll get the notion from the realtor, you'll want to give it only to you I have no realtors, I say more, I have something for you. And I know that your clients can be the one to buy it.

Derek Marlin  17:40  

Yeah, love it. Awesome. Let me talk about something we always want to ask all of our guests is something maybe a tip or something about you or your clients best deal. And then I want to hear it maybe about the worst deal because I think in my seat, everybody always talks about these amazing deals, or everybody made 100 grand over asking and everything went perfect. We're actually going to have an exclusive episode here on the worst deal that I ever did. So that we show behind the curtain how things go. But maybe first give me an idea about you or your clients best deal when it comes to the investment side could be a flip, could be a rental could be short term, whatever is maybe the best deal, of course,

Mor Zucker  18:14  

and in some of our best deals are also market dependent. And you know, it was obviously very great when my clients a few years ago in 2019, bought an outdated property. And the one that I'm mentioning is the one in Winston downs near Virginia village. And they bought it for below 400k, great location, great lot. And it just so happened that their work was being delayed during the time of the flip. And they were obviously very stressed about it. But then they hopped onto that unicorn market. Right when they were about to list it. And their appreciation was, I think, well, I'm gonna say well above what they anticipated. I don't want to give exact numbers, because I know there probably could be listening to this as well. But they made astronomical. And that was something that was very easy to find. And the reason it was easy to find because we were looking for small properties. And I think that is also something that a lot of investors are not going in. If it's not 1500 square foot or higher. And they say oh, that's going to be easy, we're going to sell it but if you actually go for the smaller properties, let's say 800 square foot tub, 1500 square foot and you from the get go price those out to not give you the same return as the 1800 square foot house. You will be surprised in today's market with young professionals, especially if it's located in a good location in Denver. They will pay for the smaller houses to have their own property with a backyard.

Derek Marlin  19:45  

Yeah, no, that's great advice. And I'm really glad that you're saying that so we're recording this right around fourth quarter of 2023. So we do love to give context in the way that we say it is from the second half of 2020 through the first half of 2022 so rough With those two years, right, those were the unicorn years, those are never coming back, we're going to have strong healthy markets, we're still going to have seller's markets where it's good to flip. But with interest rates at two and 3%, that's never gonna happen again. So that gave people the runway for things to go through the roof. And the way that we underwrite deals is we always go in, and kind of to use a sports analogy, we want to hit a double. Like we don't plan for the homerun, we're not overly excited, I think you hit the nail on the head, where it's like, take up a nice kind of cute, smaller property, do it well project that double, if it turns into a homerun, you're super excited. But we can't underwrite the deals that way. And we can't get bought into our own success. Because you're right, a lot of it is the the market. And we got to recognize that.

Mor Zucker  20:39  

And I think it's better for newer flippers to start in a smaller space. When you have 1000 square foot house, it's much easier for you to get through all the notions of what you need to do and have it ready in your projected timeframe than it would be if you're taking a 2000 square foot house to start off with.

Derek Marlin  20:57  

Yeah, I think that's great. And then when I was looking back over my notes, you had an interesting thing that I want to hear little bit more about, which is a condo tell you've got a deal in that arena, tell me a little bit about that deal.

Mor Zucker  21:07  

So I was exclusive broker for that development. And I own two units and its current development right now. So the condo tel concept is similar to what happens in the mountains, where there's an investor, he owns a unit up in the mountains, there is a property management company, they short term lease his unit, or her unit, excuse me, while they are not in town, and they can come use it whenever they want. So there was currently it's illegal to rent out for short term lease your property unless it's your primary home in Denver, right. But the condo hotel license is it the whole entire building has a hospitality license as a hotel, therefore doesn't go through the same financing. And it's not registered as a residential unit to the city, it has already the permit for it being a hotel. So they're purchased two condos in the development I was selling 99% of the building is investment owned, okay. And there is one property management company that oversees the entire building like a hotel, every unit owner has was their responsibility to choose a design for their unit. But we had only a few options to pick from. And we had to pick in a specific situation so that everyone has a same style or at least, and that's been going really well. And I know that they're planning on building a new one next to Little Man ice cream as well. Oh, yeah, that's going to come up in the next year or two as a possibility. But that has been doing very well. I mean, I'm happy to share numbers since it's my unit.

Derek Marlin  22:42  

Yeah, no, I think people love to know that if you're comfortable with whatever numbers you're comfortable sharing.

Mor Zucker  22:46  

Yes, of course. So my unit is today valued at around $650,000. And I generate somewhere between 70 and 80k. Gross on it nice. And it turns out to be after expenses, somewhere around like an 8% 9%.

Derek Marlin  23:04  

Yeah, that in Denver, that's a fantastic return, you're not going to see those returns in traditional real estate anywhere in metro Denver. So that's, that's awesome.

Mor Zucker  23:13  

Yeah, it's great. The only difference is you can't when you're trying to resell it, you have to sell it to people that will be able to get portfolio financing because you can't get a regular loan on it. And you'd have to buy it in cash. And that's where those kinds of things prevented from being exposed to a wide variety of people is because because of the financing requires a portfolio bank, or cash.

Derek Marlin  23:35  

Yeah. And I know everybody's plans change, life changes. But in today's current environment, do you plan to hold that personally for a while? Is that kind of a longer term hold for you or just wait and see how things go? Well, I

Mor Zucker  23:45  

have two in the same development. So I was hoping to sell one, and potentially move that money to the second condo hotel. But right now I'm keeping to just because I'd like to see how they do over a specific number of years for just for purposes of knowledge, informational purposes to say, hey, it's been two years, this is how they're doing. Of course, in the first year, it's a new product. It's a new building, right? The numbers might not be the same in a couple of years. So I'm going to hold on to it before I tried to sell it because who I'd be selling it to I'd be selling it to my clients. And I can't run away from those if it's not going to go well for them next year. They're gonna call me on that.

Derek Marlin  24:23  

Yeah, no, I love that. I love that accountability. Okay, so we talked about good deals, and something we always want to highlight on raising a flipping bar is things that don't go so well. So maybe give me example and you're at you can keep things anonymous. Make sure everybody's comfortable. But just maybe a scenario or deal whether it's for you or for your clients where things just didn't go right and maybe the number one reason why

Mor Zucker  24:42  

luxury flip There we go. Luxury flip. has had a lot of tears from my clients have shed them. Yeah, it's mostly because of poor quality work. Okay, that's where they always fall. They try to cut corners. Just on because the luxury flip is an expensive flip, you need to spend up on the materials you need to spend on the appliances you need to spend on so many things. But you also mostly need to pay attention to the small details, I found as though the clients that found the great materials and timeline was great, just the work was sloppy. And when a luxury buyer walks into a luxury home, they notice everything they will notice if your backsplash is slightly tilted, they will notice if your your baseboards are a slightly dirty, they are Hawk eyes and that sentence because they're spending a lot of money on their property. And also, they spent a significant number of hours in the property that they're purchasing, I can see it from my clients, the ones that will go and purchase a 600k property and Winston downs are going to go in there feel so fortunate that they can live in that neighborhood, they're going to overlook the non symmetrical tile, they're going to overlook the the small things, but that luxury buyer, if they're spending that money, they're going to sit there, they're going to have a notebook, and they're going to write every single thing that they don't like in that property at some point during the transaction. So having good quality work, ensuring that as an investor, you are not letting the mice roam free when you're not there. Yeah. So going to visit your project on a regular basis, and ensuring that it's, it's being done well, you know, I have an investor. And he comes in flies out every so often. But I found I told him you need to fly out more often. Because when you fly out every three months, by the time you look at the work, now they've already completed a quarter of what you're doing not have to go back and and redo it, you're, it's costing you more money every time it's costing a longer timeframe for your resale. So just fly out here. So you can just can't flip from afar unless you have someone that you absolutely trust that is going to manage that flip for you. Or that you're there.

Derek Marlin  27:00  

Knowing I think that's great advice. And people actually ask us, okay, when are you guys going to expand when is elevation going to different markets, and we definitely have those aspirations. But for me, you brought up the perfect point, you have to have a system in place. And you have to have checks and balances. And so yeah, you can definitely do it. Especially in the Midwest, for example, the numbers look great, it's less expensive than than our market in Denver. But you have to be super hands on. When I was owning our apartment buildings in Cincinnati, Ohio. Even though we had a management company, I would fly out there and these were just you know, C Class apartments, I was there every two or three months checking in and to your point Secret Shop. That's the other thing is we would show up in our property manager probably be a little bit pissed off. But to me, it's like just knowing what your product is and knowing how things are going on and coming out and finishing up. It's super, super important. I agree with you. So also, one quick thing I want to clarify to what dollar amount when you consider luxury. What are you talking about in metro Denver? What price point? Are we talking about whether it was those particular flips? Or even a general how do you define the luxury market from $1 perspective?

Mor Zucker  27:59  

Right now it's currently considered 1 million and up is luxury, ultra luxury is considered 2 million and up, I have found that the luxury buyer that I described to you that's going to need that kind of level of attention is starting from 800k. Now Oh, interesting. So even though it's considered a million, yeah, well, between 802k to a million consider themselves already luxury buyers. And it's not necessarily what the property luxury is for the seller. It's what the buyer considers luxury, because if they believe they're buying luxury, then they're going to treat it as such, too.

Derek Marlin  28:32  

And do you have when you're representing the buyers, do buyers and luxury price points? Are they interested in? Do they want to see if permits have been pulled on flips? Because I get a lot of questions from audience do you pull permits? Do you not pull permits? And I'll talk about that in a second. But just from your client tells perspective when when your folks are buying properties do they want to see that permits have been pulled,

Mor Zucker  28:51  

they see that they want to see that in every price point. Love it. Okay, I just luxury, I just am now under contract on a property and Parker. And we found through the inspection that the roof permit has not been closed, it was just left open. And my clients are extremely worried about that. And it's a 500k plus property. So I think the permits, and mostly it's not necessarily because they want it like they believe that they need it. So there are some instances where you have to say them, we don't need a permit for that you're gonna be fine. Yeah. And some insisted that they do but because they don't know, they assume that everything needs permits, and that fear is will cause them to ask those questions.

Derek Marlin  29:30  

Yeah, I think that's I think that's perfect. And I think a lot of times, right, there are certain things that you don't need to do a permit, but you should always do permit quality work. And so that if you know making your person feel more comfortable is the main goal. That's what we have to do as investors. I mean, it's super, super important.

Mor Zucker  29:45  

They're also worried what's gonna happen after you walk out the table of the room, and then they have to deal with it later. And then someone's gonna tell them, Oh, you don't have permits on your property and they're gonna worry that they have to chase that. So a lot of the time it's education.

Derek Marlin  29:57  

Yeah, I think that's really, really important. And a lot of times I don't know if your clients find this, but we find that if we need to do the repairs, we should absolutely do those when we're under inspection period, because a lot of times just offering up a credit isn't what the client wants, they want that thing fixed. To your point. They don't want to inherit a house and think that oh, great, I, I save $5,000 on the purchase price, but there's something that's undone or needs to be fixed up. That's what we see. Are you seeing that from your clients perspective,

Mor Zucker  30:22  

I go one step further for that. So my sellers, will my clients that become sellers for the flip, I schedule an inspection for them prior to going on the market. And then we do a pre market inspection, they fix all the things that they need to while their contractors are still working. Yes, before they close out the whole project, they make those repairs. And then when I sell the property, I already let the buyer know that these things have taken care of and taken care of, and I share the report with them. This happens for this is good for a few reasons. First of all, the buyer immediately comes in when they conduct their inspection, feeling already safe, because they will say Oh, well, they already had an inspection. So either way, they already fix that. Also, when you repair things prior to the buyer requesting them, you're often going to find that those repairs are cheaper. Because once the buyer gets involved, now the buyer wants to use potentially his people and his people might be pricier than your contractors that you've negotiated to have better deals on because they're doing so much work for you. So you don't even want to get into that discussion. If you already do it for the buyer, as the seller, then you are going to eliminate all of those scenarios, and the potential situation that a buyer might just get cold feet altogether and walk out. Yeah,

Derek Marlin  31:36  

I think that's a really great point. And I would definitely note that as almost like a flip tip, what we're starting to do in some of our new contractor relationships is we are holding back a certain percentage of the last draw to actually get through the project is complete, but we're actually holding back on average five to 10% of the rehab budget, so that we can make sure to get through inspection properly. And if there are things that need to be done, the contractor doesn't just bail. So it's definitely something that is important. And it's great for the buyer. And it's great for us as the seller, when we're flipping those properties.

Mor Zucker  32:03  

I love that idea. Yeah, take that one steal

Derek Marlin  32:05  

it, feel free to that's what we're here for. I want to kind of dive into where you are feeling like the market is going. And I always kind of put this that if you and I knew exactly where the market was going, we would be in a much different financial position, we'd be a lot wealthier than we are. So nobody knows where it's going. But tell me a little bit about how you are seeing kind of 2023 wrap up. And maybe more importantly, where you see 2024 going from a you know, real estate market perspective. I know people have brought up things about interest rates, but just tell me your general take on where you feel like the markets going over the next 15 to you know, 18 months?

Mor Zucker  32:37  

Well, I I'd love for like to predict things because I never like being wrong. Yeah,

Derek Marlin  32:42  

that's okay. I'm wrong all the time. So you're good. But

Mor Zucker  32:45  

I do believe that for the flippers out there, there is a lot of opportunity 100% For you to get things at the best price that you can on the buy side at this point. People are hearing what's happening with the interest rates. And the there will be opportunity for a lot of properties of the owners that are leaving town and are hearing that interest rates are potentially bad and are willing to sell, in my opinion in a great price. I would focus mostly like I said, on the smaller projects, if you're taking a large project on, I hope that you are qualified and that you've had several projects, I think the market itself will dictate how well you do your projects. Because over time, I've found that it's not the market that indicates if there my investor is going to do well. It's his past work. So if you're in a flipper that does good work, and that you believe in the quality of your work, you're going to continue doing well. And it's the other side for one that doesn't I feel as though the properties that are being flipped poorly and haphazardly are not being sold are being price reduced to the point where it's not worth even for the flipper any income at this point. So it's going to get more and more extreme on both ends. But the markets not really going anywhere. Because Denver is a hotspot for technology, Denver is a hotspot for any type of informational work. I just came from a conference in DC and they mentioned the top places of business that people are migrating to and Denver is one of those places. So I think we have a great opportunity to continue doing a lot of real estate business in our in our state, not necessarily even our city. And I would as much as I focus in Denver and surrounding areas. My clients have been doing really well in Colorado Springs, recently. So I recommend that

Derek Marlin  34:34  

interesting. No, I think that's a great thing. And what you just brought up is something I want to point out to our audience, which is going to conferences, educating yourself making sure that you're dealing in facts. I think it's always good at the very end to help make that decision based on your gut feel. But whether it was something you learned at that conference, or is there a certain place that you go for your information, or a data source or a conference where you get really great insight that helps you make these informed decisions.

Mor Zucker  34:59  

Yes, I'm part of a lot have forums and groups on social media and online that share information, not just to sell property from one to the other. Genuine informational sharing, I also recommend signing up to any type of mastermind that you can get your hands on, that involves people that do what you do. And it's just to hear how other people do things. I've got so much knowledge, just just hearing from other agents, for example, how they source off market properties, I even one new idea helps me go back and find more off market properties for my clients. So sharing information. And if you're worried about sharing information within your market, consider the fact that Realtors do that all the time. And we are actually competitors versus an investor, where once you own that property, no one else is going to own it. So you're not really competing with anyone else unless another investor purchased a property on your street next door to you.

Derek Marlin  35:56  

I love that. And it's funny you say that because we think the exact same thing. We do a lot of teaching and training and education helping people out and people like, Well, why are you giving this information away? Or why are you giving our secrets. So we've been doing this, I started investing in oh nine with buying rentals. And then I started doing flips in 2014. And we've done a little over almost 100 deals collectively between us between our clients. And I've only come across the same wholesaler or the same investor once in over 100 deals. And then we did like another 300 deals on single family acquisitions for our hedge fund client. You're right, we're in metro Denver, there's 3 million properties, you know, or 3 million people here. And millions of properties, like for the most part, we're not going to come across the same stuff. So it's like just be a growth mindset and an abundance mindset. And let's just share, and then to me, it's all on the person, like you do a phenomenal job, whether it's investment, real estate, or luxury marketing, because you're good at what you do, and you take care of your clients, and you're going to rise to the level of whatever your clients need. If somebody's not going to do that, then sure you can be an on house. But that's why more is gonna win and somebody else isn't.

Mor Zucker  36:55  

And a lot of people won't do what you tell them to do most of the time. I speak on stage to other realtors and tell them this is what you can do to improve your business. And they get super excited. And they take all these notes, and I follow up a year later, and they haven't done anything they were supposed to. So also realizing that not everyone's going to have the same level of commitment that you do. And if you're very passionate about your work, it can only benefit you because people are going to remember you. And especially as an investor, they're probably going to try and sell you wholesale the properties that don't work for them.

Derek Marlin  37:23  

No, and that's a great point. And then actually couldn't have been a better segue into a couple more questions I've got before we wrap up because I want to be respectful of your time. But we're really big proponents of mindset. And we're big proponents of working on your business like strategy, rather than in your business, which is just the day to day of okay, I'm gonna get up I've got a million things going on today. Yes, I might be really planned out, give our audience something that you do or that your team does to work on the business or strategic versus just getting up and doing a great job on a day to day basis.

Mor Zucker  37:51  

Well, this is a great opportunity for me to plug my book. Oh, there we go. Good. That's exactly how I, I would reference that I always figure on ways to work on my business. And that's finding unique ways to market, my business as well as generate new clients. And I found that educating my clients on past and, and everything that works is a great way to get them. So I decided to author a book about all of the experiences I've had with investment properties and my clients. And I went down the self publishing route nice. And and I found that that is another way to work on your business. So then I didn't do it to sell copies of the book, I did it so I can share it with my clients. And I sent out a copy of my book to almost every one of my clients. And from there, I received a lot of calls from people that say, Oh, I heard you wrote a book. And I never heard from this person. So working on your business is also about finding ways to generate more of the business that you're looking for. It doesn't have to be as a realtor for more clients, it can be more properties and finding also unique ways to do so I know it's easy for everyone to decide to go put a sign on the corner of the road that says we buy ugly houses or but what can you do that better than that? And, and find the ways that you can find properties that you can source that you can find because once you start to have the ability to source properties yourself as an investor, you're gonna be very powerful.

Derek Marlin  39:17  

No, I love that. I think that's great advice. I've got one more quick question before I want the audience to know how they can get a hold of you and where they can find you. But the good news is you've already given us a really cool fun fact when I say what is a fun fact that somebody might know about you. I think playing the World Series of Poker is pretty freakin cool. But let's let's maybe pin that What's something else that's unique or interesting about you that people would find really interesting Give me Give me one more fun fact about more.

Mor Zucker  39:40  

One more fun fact about more. I am very energetic and I can talk I hope I spoke quiet slow enough today but I can I can go off on one of my energy is just never ending. So if you become my client and you you want to talk about Real Estate, I can go ahead and talk real estate all day long. I don't know if that's fun, but it's fun for me. And I've tried, I travel a lot, I travel a lot also, I see as a business opportunity, because every city I go to, I make connections with the realtors that are there interesting. So that I can figure out what's in their market. And I also want to learn the market that I'm visiting. Because that was really helpful. I've learned that over time, my, my knowledge on feeder markets is growing. And then I'm getting more clients. And now I can advise, when you're saying Cincinnati, Ohio actually visited Ohio, and I actually want to tour a few buildings. So now you and I have a discussion about that, I'll be able to talk about it, you know, educated enough to have that conversation. So just another tip it is when you do travel, make an effort to to include your business in whatever way that you can in wherever you place you are.

Derek Marlin  40:54  

No and I love that you brought that up. Because I think it's really important from a marketing standpoint, a way to help grow your business, but it's a great tax advantage to I mean, when you're traveling, it's simple. When you go to a conference, typically people are gonna write that expense off because you're you're learning but if you go to someplace and you go on vacation, but you look at a couple different potential Airbnb properties, you talk to a couple agents in that market, there truly are legitimate deductions that you can and should take. And so I love it that you're hitting that from a tax perspective. You're hitting that from a marketing perspective and a business development. I think that's super smart. Thank you. Awesome. Okay, well more. Thank you so much for being a guest on raising the flipping bar I would love for you to give our audience how do they find you? Where do they want your Where do you want them to follow you give us your your contact info and how you want people to reach out to you if they choose?

Mor Zucker  41:38  

Well, you can find my real estate team everywhere on social media with the handle at Team Denver homes. And you can find me personally with the same handle more Zucker. And you can reach out to me for anything I have people reach out to me after podcast asking if one hand in poker is better than the other or the odds. So anything you want to reach out to, I'm happy to chit chat about. And thank you so much. I love your business. And I love everything you've been doing. I've been there following you and your wife closely for the last eight years of and I'm very impressed with what you're doing. And I appreciate you inviting me here. No, thank

Derek Marlin  42:14  

you. It's been great to have you this is going to be one of our best episodes. So thanks for stopping by more and we'll catch you guys on the flip side. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to raising the flipping bar. My goal is to help you successfully and profitably redevelop properties in competitive markets. And I encourage you to listen to some other episodes on this podcast. If you're a new investor, make sure you subscribe or follow raising a flipping bar on your favorite podcast platform. And make sure to share this episode with somebody you know would enjoy it had to fix and flip dot show to stay up to date with future episodes of raising the flipping bar. My name is Derrick Marlin and I'll catch you on the flip side